The Conscription

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The Conscription

Post by lannan13 on Sat May 14, 2016 10:08 am

Greetings GPA, Kyro here, today I thought that we'd have a discussion over whether or not the Conscription is Just. I will be briefly be going over my opinion as to why the Conscription isn't just. You may feel free to add in your own opinions.

Individual Rights

1) People as a Means, not an end

In a civilized society, we as humans must live together peacefully. One key issue is that we should move to create a Kingdom of Ends. The Kingdom of Ends is where people are treated as an end of themselves, not a means [1]. This is important as it is part of the soceity that we should strive to as it maximizes human equality and the ability to live together peacefully. The Kingdom shows that many people can live together under common just laws as they are able to live as ends instead of means. At the End, they are able to live together as citizens in this Kingdom to be treated as ends and this will lead to an equality through individiual rights [2]. The Draft violates the Kingdom of Ends as it forces rational beings into the military to serve their country. These individuals are being forced against their will to preform a task that does not treat them as an end. This makes the draft an unjust law as it violates the rights of Rational Being and destroys the ability to fully establish the Kingdom of Ends.

2) Objectivism, the Right to Life.

Dangers that occur with the draft is that they attempt Altruism where they abridge the rights of the individual for the gains as a whole [3]. One thing that is over looked is that without the individual, there can be no society. Each man has the right to life, where they have control of their own destiny. The Right to Life must be acknowledge as it spurs people to do and create an innovative world where they could even make it a safer one. The draft, on the other hand, abridges this right as the State takes control of the individual for the draft and forces them to preform whatever task that the government so chooses. By enforcing these people to do as the government wants enforces Involuntary Servantude upon all individuals where they have to serve in the military against their own will [4]. These individuals face death or potential injury where they would not have if they had the right to control their own lives. This creates an image that the individual is disposable making it a harmful world.


Draft harms Soceity



1. Harms the military

When we look at the generally military we must observe how it is affected by such an investment. Instituations as well as Top military officers have noted that when comparing these two groups, that a force of voluntiers is way better than those who have been drafted, forced against their will, into the military. "The all-volunteer force has had immense success in drawing highly motivated individuals... America's military leadership is adamantly opposed to instituting a new draft. The generals and admirals argue that a draft would weaken mission capability and create enormous structural and management problems. Morale and force cohesiveness would suffer intensely, particularly with a two-caste military. [5]" This kind of system in the military shows that there is a strong opposition amongst military leadership that this will create this system in the military that harms those who were drafted into it, which would later alienate those who had been in the military previously.

2. Harms the Family Unit

This is continously pulled against as a key example occured in World War 1, where 17 million people who were registered for the draft were able to pass tests for the draft, but 8 million filled for exempt status [6], showing that nearly the majority strongly pushing against it in anyway they can. Several draft riots have occured throughout US history due to the harm of the family. Many of these riots have turned bloody as generally the lower class and minorities tend to be sent off to the military in the draft while the rich are exlcuded [7]. The issue occurs when the women in the family have their husbands have to leave to go into the military and have an increased chance of death severally harms themselves, but also their household income. From the Civil War to the Vietnam War, the widows have been put into poverty. To make things worse. The draft has been shown to increases crime rate by 4% [8].

Sources
1. (http://philosophy.fas.nyu.edu/docs/IO/1881/scanlon.pdf)
2. Stephen Palmquist "'The Kingdom of God is at Hand!' (Did Kant really say that?)", History of Philosophy Quarterly 11:4 (October 1994), pp.421-437.
3. ( https://www.theobjectivestandard.com/what-is-objectivism/
4. Ron Paul (2009), On Reinstating the Draft, house.gov,
5. ( http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2006/11/no-justification-for-a-military-draft)
6. Groupman, Alan. "Should the United States Reinstate the Draft?" Retired Officer Magazine July 2000: n. pag. Web. 28 Mar. 2016.
7. (http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/317749.html)
8. (https://www.povertyactionlab.org/evaluation/military-conscription-and-crime-argentina)
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Re: The Conscription

Post by kalev60 on Sun May 22, 2016 12:32 pm

On purely moral grounds anything that is forced on a person can't be just, execution just for sake of executing someone can't be just.
The other main point with Conscription is that it is targeted on people with specific age and gender. When dealing with any other thing in society such restrictions would be considered discriminatory, sexist and unjust so If I were a religious bloke I'd call conscription a sin against god, man and society as a whole.

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Re: The Conscription

Post by Francisco II on Sun May 22, 2016 12:47 pm

I live in a country where there's not conscription, so this is really far to me to declinate it into all the meanings, older members of my family did conscription, and describe it as a school of life, something like a proof they are no more childs, but mans. Last year a government member told that conscription should be re enforced, cause young boys and girls are growing up pretty dumb, wasting their parent's money, parents... the same parents that ruined our country, by pledging our nation to the all-consuming and empty way of live we are living...

Personally, I think that there won't never be peace on our planet, at least until mankind exists: even if we try to deny that, we are selfish and prefer the better of us/our family than the better of a stranger. I'm talking about racism, xenophobia and other diseases we struggle to defeat. When I turn on my tv and hear about cops shooting against minorities, or handicapped peoples being banned from schools only cause they re different, I'm more and more confident that peace and respects are utopias, cause the same peoples who talked of these two words ended up betrayng their meanings by discriminating and fighting someothers in less than an hour later...

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Re: The Conscription

Post by Sven Shieldmaker on Mon May 23, 2016 2:27 am

Well, I served 24 years. The draft is only useful in war time. There are situations where defense requirements exceed volunteerism, both for wars just and unjust. Imagine losing a war that could have been won had you had the manpower to do so. With so many people EXPECTING their nation to service them, while offering nothing in return...I'm ok with the draft. Women too..equal rights and whatnot. Conscription as I believe you mean, is being inducted (without choice) into the military during peacetime. Many Scandinavian countries (and Switzerland) do this (as did most Warsaw Pact nations). That is a grayer area. However, in either case, draft or conscription (talking about democratic nations), these laws are enacted at the sufferance of the electorate. If any nation's populace had found them so onerous as to demand they be discontinued, they would have. Italy did in 2000 and Poland in 2008.
Who here considers the rights of their pixel citizens, or do you just fill your barracks for the number of soldiers you need at the moment?
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Re: The Conscription

Post by kalev60 on Mon May 23, 2016 4:24 am

As far as I know about the peacetime military service which some countries have, including my own, It's usually a year from a young persons life, most countries still only take males, It's not as harsh as conscription is, it's more like a boot-camp to fill and train the ranks in case some war breaks out nobody is being sent into war after finishing such training. Here it's mandatory for every male citizen between ages of 18 and 27, you can get out of it on medical terms, by studying in university(you'll still need to go after finishing) or being the sole breadwinner for your family, also they let women in now if they volunteer too.
In my first post I was in the camp of it not being just and I'm still there but alternatives in history have always been worse with out unjust conscriptions I'm not sure we'd be able to debate it here and now, probably some of us might not even be alive.
Has conscriptions been done fairly in past, would they be done fairly now? No they haven't, from the middle ages the rich knight numbers against peons or free footsoldiers have been about 1 to 5 in armies , with knights being the main fighting force similar to tanks in today's militaries. In past century wars have been mainly fought by the poor to fill the pockets of the rich which isn't just or fair anyway you look at it. In last 100 or so years there is very little conflicts were you can look at the sides and say that war needed to be fought, there are some in which conscription played a mayor roll. In situation like those better unjust conscription that a total defeat though, there are a couple of wars where losing wasn't an options and countries didn't have much of an alternative other than to fight for their very survival.
When talking about the conscripted though I can't do anything but feel the awe, I mean men who weren't given much choice in the matter did so much in various wars. The physiological handicap of being forced to fight and why the hell would I fight for side that forces me to do that is huge, It's part of human nature to fight that outside force or at least try to save ones own hide. Over coming that must have been difficult.

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Re: The Conscription

Post by Majorian on Wed May 25, 2016 6:08 am

Well speaking from the U.S. I can tell you that most in the army that I met don't want a return to the draft because it just isn't necessary. LAst I heard our country was meeting its recruiting goals just fine without forcing people to join. A The US did away with conscription back in the 1970's but I managed to meet a couple of old guys who were drafted and stayed in, mostly old colonels or sergeant major. A very large country like China or India probably doesn't need conscription either, because their populations are so large that they will always have enough volunteers.

On the other hand if you are in a smaller country and face a true emergency, such as invasion, then it is probably necessary. You either give up a few years freedom now to fight or you give up your independence. There aren't as many nation vs nation wars these days, but they do still occur now and again, and if you live next to an aggressive, dangerous country you should probably have the draft. I was stationed in South Korea (ROK) and saw their army: those guys have the draft, and they need it.
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Re: The Conscription

Post by lannan13 on Sun May 29, 2016 10:17 am

Francisco II wrote:I live in a country where there's not conscription, so this is really far to me to declinate it into all the meanings, older members of my family did conscription, and describe it as a school of life, something like a proof they are no more childs, but mans. Last year a government member told that conscription should be re enforced, cause young boys and girls are growing up pretty dumb, wasting their parent's money, parents... the same parents that ruined our country, by pledging our nation to the all-consuming and empty way of live we are living...

Personally, I think that there won't never be peace on our planet, at least until mankind exists: even if we try to deny that, we are selfish and prefer the better of us/our family than the better of a stranger. I'm talking about racism, xenophobia and other diseases we struggle to defeat. When I turn on my tv and hear about cops shooting against minorities, or handicapped peoples being banned from schools only cause they re different, I'm more and more confident that peace and respects are utopias, cause the same peoples who talked of these two words ended up betrayng their meanings by discriminating and fighting someothers in less than an hour later...

I agree with this. You know how the saying goes, "If everyman and women were staffed in the Army and fleet, we'd have full-employment and nothing to eat."
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Re: The Conscription

Post by Hunter on Sun May 29, 2016 11:33 am

Drafting is somewhat of a last resort, many nations do not draft members unless nation-wide destruction is imminent, ex The British towards Nazi advances in france, and Battle of Britian, and like wise in Nazi Germany when the Soviets closed in on Berlin, and like Socrates said, "a disorderly mob is no more an army than a heap of building materials is a house" or where the losses are so high there are not enough reserves or troops to reinforce the armed fores

It does hurt the people, and like in the Vietnam War could be devastating,

I like the system similar to Turkey, South Korea and other nations where they are trained, and are in the army for roughly a year or two, then are returned to civilian life, keeping a well trained civilian force in the event of warfare,
We do not have conscription in The US, but we have the selective service which registers us for the government to draft us if our government needs us

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Re: The Conscription

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